*visionaryartists

Very true indeed.

Science is approaching the domain once reserved for the Shaman...at some point, someone will put it all together, and realize that Shamanism was not a mystical occupation, but a science. Quantum physics!!!

I am still very intrigued at how this discussion claims to be about science and immediately shifts to being about pseudoscience and spiritualism.

I don't think any shaman that has ever lived had the slightest clue what quantum physics is. Nor did they understand space travel or the internet, except maybe contemporary people claiming to be shamans yet living in the modern world. The word "quantum physics" is being invoked here like a magic word - entirely divorced from its meaning and applications - in an attempt to lend credibility to archaic belief systems.

But you guys knew I would say that didn't you?

Sorry to make waves again, I mean no disrespect but it's only because the initial description of this sounds so exciting and promising. These words are 100% true: "the universe 'out there' is more incredible, more beautiful, more intricate and sublime, than anything we might simply conjure in our own heads." This is exactly what I want to start incorporating into my own art, and exactly what I want to see more of in the world.

I wonder what the visionary artists here will do with these topics - for example, evolution. Will I see something truly profound that deals with the real theory of evolution, and its implications? Or will I see something that in a post-modern (gag) way only vaguely references the word "evolution", taken completely out of context from its scientific meaning and mixed in with ages-old spiritual ideas rather than scientific ones? Will the term "evolution" be simply shouted out with no regard to what it really is, as so many others are fond of shouting out "quantum physics"?

I am especially curious because when you take time to understand it, the theory of evolution has profound implications for our existence and how we understand life and creativity, and therefore endless potential as a source of artistic inspiration.

The theory of evolution for one thing is diametrically opposed to almost all religious and spiritual beliefs about life and creation, which nearly always begin with a divine being or force, usually said to be perfect or idealized as love, light etc.; and this prime mover (God or whatever) gives organization and life to the universe. In religion and spirituality, everything trickles down from creation.

Evolution is completely backwards from this. Rather than a trickling down, it is a slowly ascending slope. It starts with simple beginnings. A molecule arises that has one goal: to copy itself. In time molecules come together and build into cells, and cells into organisms. Natural selection - which is really just random mutation combined with sheer cause and effect - causes organisms to evolve. This is a natural force with no intelligence behind it. Creativity is not present at the beginning, it is the last result of millions of years of change and increasing complexity. This is light years away from shamanism.

In spiritualism and religion, creativity precedes life. In evolution, creativity not only arises long after life already exists, it isn't even necessary for life at all. Creativity does not occur until the brains capable of doing it - namely our brains - have already evolved through natural selection.

Evolution and genetics together have also proven without a doubt that we are related to every other organism on this planet. We really are like one big family. There's your hippie new age interconnectedness right there!

These, I would think, would be profound notions with vast implications. The problem is, since our science education sucks balls, very few people understand the theory of evolution in the first place.

Still less people understand quantum physics - even the scientists who use it don't understand it, they only know it works because the predictions it makes are dead-on accurate. There's something else to wonder at! We don't understand an equation but we know the answer is right because of the results? That's trippy! That's poetic as hell, in my humble opinion. All sorts of ways you can be creative with an idea like that, don't you think? Who needs a shaman?

Just remember, (credible) scientific theories are models of the real world based on observations and experimentation. Some disciplines involve some guess work and extrapolation, particularly the social sciences, but on the whole, real science corresponds with the natural world, "out there". On the other hand, religion and spirituality is the stuff we make up, that comes out of our heads. Not only do you not need to bring spiritualism into the discussion, it's a shame to, because the nonsense detracts from the elegance of the universe. Borrow the wonder and awe of religion if you must, but don't go importing its unfounded claims.

And really, the natural world is so vast and complex, it should provide all the inspiration you need - there's no reason at all why you need to borrow anything from religion or spirituality. Reality is more than enough.

Love and respect,

-R

--
"Let's make a law that gay people can have birthdays, but straight people get more cake - you know, to send the right message to kids."

-Bill Maher

I am totally down (so to speak) for anything entitled "Lowerworld". Also, I would like to get some kind of article, of a not too long persuasion, written up for the club. The mood will strike me, hopefully soon.

Dude, you miscontrue what I say, or rather shout out. "Reality is more than enough!" What the fuck are you babbling about, bro (and I say this in the most hippified manner I can muster). Imagine science from a century ago. Then Imagine science a century from now. There is now way we can truly engage with this world without some kind of imagination coming into play. Your dream of objectivity is just that, a dream. Try to study up on Shamanism. There is a good likelihood that people who dealt with reality on a daily basis for thousands of years, without distractions of tv and cars and computers, figured some useful things out. I don't claim to know anything substantive about quantum physics (beyond some cool documentaries) or for that matter even shamanism. But all this science stuff seems to be in fact correlating with some "primitive" ideas and ideals. Yes, everything is interconnected, but what does it matter if a scientist says it or some Daoist monk from 3000 years ago? They both came to the conclusion through observation of the world around them. It is funny to see people like yourself who feign to be in total command of how reality is to be understood and perceived. How can you claim that what you call science is any more valid or advanced than what ancient cultures practiced? That strikes me as vain and narrow minded in the extreme! I am not a religious person, so I am most definitely not offended on that front. I just like to think that I use my imagination to engage with reality. And strangely, this leads to doing art...

What if science reaches a strange point where we do discover that there are 14 dimensions (or whatever it is)? How will we deal with that? I think the main thing that disturbs me about your above comment (aside from pivoting your whole argument on some flip comment I made, in the spirit of fun) is just the black and white attitude you project. I am in awe of the incalculable vastness, strangeness, and mystery of this world. I do not subscribe to any religion, indeed, I would most likely show scorn for the exoteric religions. Just don't take everything so insanely literally. The majority of humanity is so literal minded, and this lack of understanding of what a truly deep too symbolism can be is what causes our current situation of destruction and mayhem. We might actually agree on some fundamental things, I would suspect, but you just come off trying to attack what you wrongly percieve in my comment, without even directly engaging me.

You got me pretty sparked up for the past day. It has been a good thing. I've been having a silent dialogue with myself, really plumbing what I think my views are surrounding the discussion. I find that I have no opposition to science or technology. I would say that I view these things as tools. I think the main point I want to examine is that the human body, the human brain, is are instruments of technology and exploration that have been used by ancient humans to discovery many deep and strange things about this life, this world. The DNA coiled in our bodies, in strands 10 atoms wide, if stretched end to end, would reach the sun. And this is a storage facility for information. It is not even comprehensible to try to compare this to something we can easily grasp, like the memory of even the most advanced and massive computers. I refuse to call the leftover stuff that we don't understand "junk DNA". This is maybe thing that irks me. That is clearly a value judgement made by whoever is studying DNA. Why put this kind of label on an aspect of this science which has not yet been fully understood? The wide eye of speculation and imagination needs to remain open in the face of the parts of the puzzle that are invisible to us. That is why I am touchy about people consigning the widespread and ancient human practice of Shamanism to the easily torpedoed crap label of New Age hippie bullshit. And I have to say that my knowledge of it, my reading, is indeed quite limited. The main influences I have in this regard are Jeremy Narby and anthropologist who wrote a very engaging book called "The Cosmic Serpent", and David Lewis-Williams, the leader in the field of ancient art study and ancient consciousness research, in his book "The Mind in the Cave". My sense is that Shamanism is the utilization of the full capacities of the human technology, the bio-technology if you will, to explore areas not normally accessed by our senses. I don't think there needs to be any dichotomy between strict science and the exploration of worlds, phenomenon, or energies that are just beyond the capacity of our senses (5, as we imagine now) and our devices of measurement. Ultimately, there is room for ancient knowledge to be explored. Many myths and ancient ideas were couched in mnemonic devices, which are now taken as literal by our symbol-illiterate society. We are truly deprived. Religion has become (and probably has been for thousands of years) a way to channel the energies of humanity and effect control on a mass basis. But there is an underworld of culture, things that grew up from the grass roots of humanity acting in direct relation to its surrounds and need for survival. This is animism, and shamanism...

Well, got to take a break right here...getting too into it...

What would a shaman be able to tell me about the composition or behavior of electrons? About wave-particle duality? Or wavefunction collapse?

Probably not a whole hell of a lot.

But if you wanna hear some inspiring scientific dialogue that deals with, among other things, quantum physics, check out this discussion between physicist Steven Weinberg and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins - just scroll down to the youtube window, hit play and it should automatically play all the clips in a row: [link]

--
"Let's make a law that gay people can have birthdays, but straight people get more cake - you know, to send the right message to kids."

-Bill Maher

Excellent link, am enjoying. Is that hadron collider in Switzerland rolling yet? Graviton arrival. Multiverses. Possiblity! String theory delights me. Paradox is the wonder of it all...when they rip a hole in reality, and the shit hits the fan, let us resume this discussion.